tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.comments2024-02-18T19:17:58.021+02:00TraditionalistsMark Sedgwickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09998818251387897344noreply@blogger.comBlogger1038125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-9100828941734391552024-02-18T14:39:13.898+02:002024-02-18T14:39:13.898+02:00How can one join the maramiyya tariqa ? Is there a...<br />How can one join the maramiyya tariqa ? Is there any organised group who follows this tariqa that I can contact? And can you recommend any other tariqa that supports the idea "transcendental unity of religions"<br />You can email me at <br />top396547@gmail.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-79274106486153477772024-02-18T13:57:37.419+02:002024-02-18T13:57:37.419+02:00How can someone join this tariqa called "Mara...How can someone join this tariqa called "Maramiyya" or can you recommend any other tariqa that support the philosophy known as "transcendental unity of religions" Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-35340372317583390422024-02-13T07:08:10.024+02:002024-02-13T07:08:10.024+02:00Overall, I avoid concepts such as “the Chinese rac...Overall, I avoid concepts such as “the Chinese race”, “traditional society” etc. I do not find them useful in understanding foreign cultures. At the end of the day, my point is that if one wants to understand Guenon should read his books, but if one wants to understand the rich spiritual culture of China it would be better if we avoid occultism and move towards serious interpreters of that tradition (I would start with the great Kristofer Schipper)Davide Marinonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-23219608767807742502024-02-13T07:07:46.113+02:002024-02-13T07:07:46.113+02:00Dear Nobodysonofnoone,
Thank you for your message...Dear Nobodysonofnoone,<br /><br />Thank you for your message. If you wish to read my thesis please contact me in private. It is currently under embargo, but I would be happy to share my work with you. Here are some of my opinions about your remarks.<br /><br />“The quality of Guenons work does not depend on his having a taoist or santa dharma initation.He never claims to have had such and one can hardly blame him for the vein imaginations of his fanboys can we?” and “Guenon developed his view on many things later on in life especially buddhism and he rejected the role of a guru or religious author, therfore he would have been the first to admit that his work is not religous authority,merely opinion” Sure, his fanboys caused much harm to the memory of such an interesting thinker. However, it is untrue that Guénon never made claims of spiritual authority. He was intelligent enough to make veiled (very “esoteric”) references to his “higher sources” without giving away too much information (which would have been scrutinized). This is a well-known rhetorical strategy employed by gurus and pseudo-gurus of all kinds. See<br /><br />Nous espérons pourtant qu’il nous fera l’honneur d’admettre qu’aucune tradition n’est «venue à notre connaissance» par des «écrivains», surtout occidentaux et modernes, ce qui serait plutôt dérisoire ; leurs ouvrages ont pu seulement nous fournir une occasion commode de l’exposer, ce qui est tout différent, et cela parce que nous n’avons point à informer le public de nos véritables «sources», et que d’ailleurs celles-ci ne comportent point de «références» ; mais, encore une fois, notre contradicteur est-il bien capable de comprendre que, en tout cela, il s’agit essentiellement pour nous de connaissances qui ne se trouvent point dans les livres?<br /><br />If not in “profane books”, where did this knowledge come from? The subtext is very clear (by the way, in the “traditional society” it is normal to openly declare one's lineage, I wonder why Guénon was so “anti-traditional” in this).<br /><br /><br />“This exoteric and esoteric division and in no way did guenon assert that it was a clear line of demarcation” If Confucianism cannot be “esoteric” and Daoism cannot be “exoteric” I feel that the line is quite clear.<br /><br /><br />“In the great tried he does discuss the role of buddhism in relation to both taoism and confucianism and why it was able to act as a useful bridge between the two” Yeah, that is a Guénon’s invention. Buddhism was, at first, vigorously rejected both by Confucians and Daoists. Daoists and Buddhists fought for centuries to win imperial support. I never heard a Buddhist telling me that his doctrine was a bridge between Confucianism and Daoism. Ready to learn if someone has a Buddhist text/author which says so.<br /><br /><br />“I don know what you mean by suggesting the great triad is an invented category.” The triad heaven-earth-man is not invented (even though it is not called Grande Triade but tianrenheyi天人合一, which means roughly “heaven and humanity are united as one”). In my previous comment, I was referring to Guenon’s discussion of the “Daoist triads” which, as demonstrated by tons of literature, simply do not exist. All those pages about “the White Lotus” etc are just occultist sub-culture, a product of European imagination which has nothing to do with China. <br /><br /><br />“the opening page claims that the esoteric/exoteric formulation came out of his ideas about chinese culture??This is an adbsurd?” I could not find such a claim on the opening page of my work. I will not say that such a distinction is “an obvious everyday truth” except for that subset of the religious world known as “occultism/esotericism”. But that is another story. The main point of my work is to show that, before encountering Islam (via Agueli) Guenon was deeply influenced by (a version of) the “Far Eastern Tradition”, (de Pouvourville) and that Guenon’s metaphysics is largely based on de Pouvourvillian themes. Davide Marinonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-49302522828118540742024-02-12T15:23:16.842+02:002024-02-12T15:23:16.842+02:00Also whilst i have not yet read your thesis( woud ...Also whilst i have not yet read your thesis( woud love to ) the opening page claims that the esoteric/exoteric formulation came out of his ideas about chinese culture??This is an adbsurd? It is alreayd very clearly establsihed in islam ,in Hinduism(jnanic and bhaktic paths and the caste system itself)..in freemasonry...its an obvious everyday truth that did not need the input of chinese culture to be made apparent??<br />His model and that of schuon is much more influenced by the shariah and tariqah, the zahir and batin distinction in Islam than anything to do with chinese culture.nobodysonofnoonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16144551037929647221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-77652518209694950652024-02-12T13:19:13.513+02:002024-02-12T13:19:13.513+02:00first thank for your contribution to the field of ...first thank for your contribution to the field of guenonian studies , however i would personally adopt a much more charitable approach to the man and his work.<br />The quality of Guenons work does not depend on his having a taoist or santa dharma initation.He never claims to have had such and one can hardly blame him for the vein imaginations of his fanboys can we?<br />As for his exoteric /esoteric stratification it was never meant to be some absolute distinction between two domains which he very much acknowledged overlaped.<br />guenon is merely asserting the obivous that confucian values and rituals were used in the social sphere to regulate every day life and the relatinship between different levels of society.When your house was haunted by a ghost or your business was failing you would go to the taoist master not the confucian gentlemean and scholar.Its quite simple. this exoteric and esoteric division and in no way did guenon assert that it was a clear line of demarcation.<br /><br />As for buddhism,this may sound like a massive ommision and indeed it would be if geunons focus was to give an in depth socio cultural explanantion of chinese society.He wasnt ..he was trying to deal with the sinic psyche.The chinese understood buddhism in terms of concepts that preceded buddhism iself ? This is where guenons focus was as a metaphysician he was not playing anthropologist<br />.he did not in fact ignore buddhism completely ,in the great tried he does discuss the role of buddhism in relation to both taoism and confucianism and why it was able to act as a useful bridge between the two .<br />The Chinese are a practical race and they were often confcian buddhist and taoist at the same time, which shows that they clearly established these sperate domains of reponsibilty to each of the different traditions and therefore this only gives further credence to guenons thesis.If you live in any traditional chinese society you will see this even now being observed .<br />I don know what you mean by suggesting the great triad is an invented category.Please elaborate.The idea of the sage king as mediator between heaven and earth is ubiquitous and even maoism does not escape it.<br />The idea idea of multiple states of being of course had to exist prior to guenon according to his own terms as his whole sthick was that there is nothing new under the sun and that he was was merely a transmitter of existing knowledge not an originator. What cant be denied that guenons multiple state of being is more comprehensive an exploration of this theme than anything written at the time or untill now.<br />I quite agree that their is no factual information in man and his becoming that wasnt available in writing at his time, but their is something very groundbreaking in his presentation of the facts .<br />In principle his initiation into sufism (which was through an authentic chain of tradition) could have blessed him with an opening that could illuminate anything and bring it into the fold of a unified vision.<br />Finally guenon developed his view on many things later on in life especially buddhism and he rejected the role of a guru or religious author, therfore he would have been the first to admit that his work is not religous authority,merely opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-69144939832557604042024-02-09T13:58:56.893+02:002024-02-09T13:58:56.893+02:00Samir, thank you!Samir, thank you!Mark Sedgwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09998818251387897344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-79369856524023096352024-02-09T13:10:48.661+02:002024-02-09T13:10:48.661+02:00It looks like Guénon did mention Berdyaev in his w...It looks like Guénon did mention Berdyaev in his writings at least twice, but has written his name differently (Berdiaef or Berdiaeff) : <br /> <br />* Études sur la Franc-Maçonnerie et le Compagnonnage, tome 1, René Guénon, éd. Éditions Traditionnelles, 1971, p. 161, November 1930. Guénon says: "Dans le numéro du 3 août, une note intitulée La Rose-Croix du XXe siècle, mais où il n’est nullement question de Rose-Croix, débute par un résumé de l’histoire du « Martinisme » en Russie à l’époque même de Saint-Martin, et se termine par une accusation de « luciférianisme » contre le philosophe Vladimir Soloviev et ses « disciples », MM. Dmitri Mérejkovsky, Nicolas Berdiaef et Valentin Spéransky. À force de voir du « diabolisme » partout, les rédacteurs de la R.I.S.S. finiront peut-être par n’être pas bien sûrs de n’en être pas eux-mêmes plus ou moins entachés !". Berdyaev is mentioned as an alleged indirect "disciple" of Saint-Martin.<br /><br />* Letter to Dr. Duby (Dr. Fabre), with the date 24 january 1938, Guénon says: "Soloview ou Soloviov (les noms russes se transcrivent de bien des façons diverses) est bien celui dont il est question dans le « Théosophisme » ; c’était effectivement un personnage assez extraordinaire par bien des côtés, et certainement très « slave » ; je trouve qu’il y a quelque parenté d’esprit entre lui et Berdiaeff". It's not clear whether Guénon makes or not a distinction between Vladimir Solovyov, the christian philosopher, and his elder brother Vsevolod Solovyov, the novelist and former theosophist who published a book critiquing Mme Blavatsky that served as documentation for Guénon's book on Theosophism. It looks like Guénon didn't have a good knowledge of Berdyaev's work, because even if he's been profoundly influenced by the Christian theosophy of Jacob Boehme, as Vladimir Solovyov, he rejected Solovyov's concept of the "Eternal Feminine", as he considered it a pagan influence that corrupted the correct interpretation of Jacob Boehme. Samirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-90892437865178741052024-02-02T13:49:59.173+02:002024-02-02T13:49:59.173+02:001. The problem with Guénon's interpretation of...1. The problem with Guénon's interpretation of Chinese religion is that, in order to make it fit with his "esoteric-exoteric" distinction, he oversimplified the whole story to an extent that the Chinese spiritual tradition is hardly recognizable. I'll sketch a few points here, but the whole discussion would deserve an article (not sure who would publish that though!)<br />First of all, he totally neglected the role played by Buddhism(s) without which Chinese religion as we know would be totally unimaginable. Secondly, he reduced "Confucianism" to a social and moral doctrine, ignoring the millennial history of the intra-Confucian discussion on mystics/metaphysics. Lastly, "Daoism" has also a very rich and diverse history which went from the "Church-like/State-like" organization of the Heavenly Masters in Medieval Central China to aristocratic intellectualistic traditions such as the "Lingbao school". It cannot be reduced to Guénon’s occultist discourse about “the Triads” (another invented category).<br />Obviously, Guénon cannot really be criticized for his deficient knowledge of the Chinese world, which was largely unexplored in his days. Today we have thousands of good books about Chinese religion, many written by great scholars and I believe that “Guénon’s China” should be read today as an archaeological curiosity, an early stage of the European understanding of China. <br />2. As you said, the Neoplatonic tradition abounds of multileveled universes (especially Proclus). In modern times, Swedenborg talked of “spheres”, while Blavatsky and the Theosophists talk of “planes” (“planes of Existence” or “planes of Consciousness” or “Plan of Being” etc). In French, Max Theon in his Tradition Cosmique talked of “États”. Similarly, de Pouvourville’s Voie métaphysique clearly contains the same idea (btw I heard that the book will soon be available in English).<br />3. Man and his Becoming (one of Guénon’s most profound books in my opinion). I am not an indologist but I have yet to find any notion about Hinduism in that book that wasn’t part of the scholarly knowledge of his time. Again, I do not discuss the interpretation of such notions, I am just saying that the elements that make the book were already there, in English or in French. Also, even Traditionalist authors who were actually in contact with living Hinduism (e.g. Alain Daniélou) timidly criticized some aspects of Guénon’s interpretation. This is why I highly doubt the existence of a mysterious Hindu master. After all, his followers have claimed for decades that Guénon had Sufi and Daoist “oriental” masters. Now we know that they were Aguéli and de Pouvourville. Why should be any different for a religion that was much more known at the time (Hinduism)?<br /><br />As for my thesis being published, I am in the hands of the Gods of academic publishing houses! Davide Marinonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-23908503589537589452024-02-01T21:35:02.169+02:002024-02-01T21:35:02.169+02:00Hello everyone and a great thanks Pr Sedgwick for ...Hello everyone and a great thanks Pr Sedgwick for your excellent work that I follow since years now.<br /><br />The usual tactic of the "Schuonic"'s cult is indeed to play on copyright by threatening prosecution against those who would dare to publish compromising information about Schuon and his group. But it is a method that can only work in the USA or on media dependent on the laws of this peculiar country.<br /><br />That there is really such a possibility of legal coercion in the USA is moreover an anomaly: on this account it would be then quite possible to ban any work dealing with thorny subjects under the mere pretext that this work reproduces extracts from texts under copyright! We can imagine, among other things, what investigative journalism or historical researches would become under such conditions!<br />This is one of the means used by the schuonic's cult since the beginning of the revelations following the Bloomington trial, in order to censor discordant speeches and informations.<br /><br />Do people belonging to the schuonic's high hierarchy still believe that Schuon was an incomparable spiritual master and for some even a super avâtara? It is after all possible because credulity has few limits. But it seems to me that for some of these "disciples" it is above all a question of doing everything possible to prevent the idealized image of Schuon from being tarnished by unsavory aspects so that the collapse of this image does not lead to the fall of all the publishing business and the influence of the schuonic's net among certain circles.<br />A rather complete file on the Schuon affair was published on the web some years ago with suggestive illustrations. In order to circumvent threats of prosecution for copyright infringement, the webmaster of the site chose to publish graphic reproductions of the sandalous photos. But it was probably an unnecessary precaution because, as I said, the sometimes weird American laws don't apply universally. <br />I however don't believe that it can strictly be applied in the USA, as the schuonic's inquisition claims. It would be indeed such a serious attack on freedom of research and expression, only conceivable in a dictatorship. <br /><br />That's why we can guess that the schuonic's headquarter lie by exaggerating the reality of possible prosecutions. <br />Lying was so much often the order of the day with Schuon and his "spiritual elite", all through their past activities, that such a persistence in lying would only show that, over the years, this incongruous cult remains faithful to this particular aspect of the teaching of its divine master !<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-39984070360184309862024-01-31T20:14:22.757+02:002024-01-31T20:14:22.757+02:00Thank you for your kind response to my comments on...Thank you for your kind response to my comments on your thesis.<br /><br />Could you elaborate a little on your answer , please ?<br /><br />1.You mentioned that the "the Guénonian model simply does not work when applied to Chinese religion ". I assume that you are referring to his model of an exoteric and an esoteric dimension. However , i think he does say somewhere that this model is more applicable to the monotheisms than the Eastern traditions ?<br />However,Guénon seems to have regarded Confucianism as the exoteric and Taoism as the esoteric aspect of the Chinese tradition .<br />2. I would be very grateful if you could give me some references for the concept of " multiple states of being" in Theosophic or Martinist sources or any sources prior to Guénon , as i would genuinely like to read further about this.<br />Of course , there is this concept in Christianity of multiple states or a divine hierarchy but applied to the angelic realm , perhaps deriving from Dionysius the Areopagite ? In fact in " The Multiple States of Being " , Guénon does refer to the angelic states as symbolizing the multiple states of being.<br />3. Regarding " Man and his Becoming " , i'm unconvinced that the orientalist sources available to Guénon at the time he wrote this would have been enough to allow him to perform a feat of bricolage which resulted in that work . Obviously , i am unable to be certain of this as i am not so well acquainted with the written sources on Vedanta and Samkhya of the period which might have been available to him . There again , i would be very grateful if you could recommend some sources . <br /><br />Looking forward to seeing your thesis published .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-50830661854985191342024-01-28T07:34:50.521+02:002024-01-28T07:34:50.521+02:001. De Pouvourville was not a Daoist in the sense a...1. De Pouvourville was not a Daoist in the sense argued by Guénon, but his representation of the "Far East" is less fanciful than it may seem (I hope to discuss AdP engagement with his Vietnamese sources when\if my thesis becomes a monograph). The problem is that the Guénonian model simply does not work when applied to Chinese religion. <br />2. Concepts like "the multiple states of being" were in fact part of the occultist repertoire of the time (both Theosophy and Martinism elaborated versions of it). I believe de Pouvourville himself have learnt these things in the Martinist milieu.<br />3. De Pouvourville was in fact an evolutionist who believed in (spiritual) progress. However, he also saw in the "Traditional" political organization of China a model to which "The West" could learn. <br />4. "the Man and his Becoming" does not contain any idea that wasn't already available in Europe. Guenon's genius did not come from privileged access to (in my opinion non-existent) "oriental masters". Instead, he was an original "religious bricoleur", someone who was able to use the material available to him and to other Europeans to create a "system of thought" that was and still is appreciated by many.<br /><br />Thank you for your nice words about my work.<br /><br />Davide MarinoDavide Marinohttps://cuhk.academia.edu/DavideMarinonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-84448751986891744742024-01-25T17:31:40.642+02:002024-01-25T17:31:40.642+02:00The Jan 22 comment above is evidently by Maude Mur...The Jan 22 comment above is evidently by Maude Murray, but since it is not in any way related to Frithjof Schuon, Catherine Schuon, or Michael Fitzgerald. it can be posted.Mark Sedgwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09998818251387897344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-49885338544620706502024-01-25T16:49:55.461+02:002024-01-25T16:49:55.461+02:00Though as Lewis reveals in Surprised by Joy, conve...Though as Lewis reveals in Surprised by Joy, converting to Hinduism was something he had considered independently of Lings.Foobobble the Absurdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05727881978451493648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-81653757890591288492024-01-23T16:43:47.540+02:002024-01-23T16:43:47.540+02:00In response to A.M.: Yes, that is my understanding...In response to A.M.: Yes, that is my understanding. Plus a bit of breach of copyright too, as there was a photograph reproduced to which MM did not have the copyright.Mark Sedgwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09998818251387897344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-69498644088403775922024-01-23T16:02:06.347+02:002024-01-23T16:02:06.347+02:00Do I have it right that this lawsuit stems from a ...Do I have it right that this lawsuit stems from a 1995 NDA by Murray that prohibits her from talking about Schuon in any way? I tried to read the original complaint, but the Scribd website is now unusable, requiring me to wait through multiple ads before reading each page.A.M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-42241070013730881712024-01-23T11:36:27.544+02:002024-01-23T11:36:27.544+02:00Wasn't Schuon who said : "Il n'y a pa...Wasn't Schuon who said : "Il n'y a pas de droit supérieur à celui de la Vérité" ? But here is a much better quote : Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-26539063129392353552024-01-23T05:36:31.297+02:002024-01-23T05:36:31.297+02:00She is on Facebook and Messenger; and her email ad...She is on Facebook and Messenger; and her email address, on her (otherwise dormant) Facebook page, is Murraymaude57@gmail.com. She answers messages and lives in a mountain village in Pakistan - seeming to be well! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-14332217164559626462024-01-22T21:55:03.685+02:002024-01-22T21:55:03.685+02:00Im perfectly fine, excepted legally, at 85; and I ...Im perfectly fine, excepted legally, at 85; and I reply to letters Murraymaude57@gmail.com Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-81794135473211707742024-01-22T17:15:17.505+02:002024-01-22T17:15:17.505+02:00In response to Nicholas Colloff: Yes, there are i...In response to Nicholas Colloff: Yes, there are indeed cases of Traditionalists converting to Catholicism, but this is a minority destination. And Guénon's view of Catholicism was not exactly positive.Mark Sedgwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09998818251387897344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-28891544108803350592024-01-16T20:03:16.380+02:002024-01-16T20:03:16.380+02:00Rodger Cunningham:
Surely those who regard Ayn Ra...Rodger Cunningham:<br /><br />Surely those who regard Ayn Rand as a philosopher are by implication incapable of understanding philosophy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-79359588599241585902024-01-16T14:21:50.117+02:002024-01-16T14:21:50.117+02:00Concerning ultra-nationalism I think sometimes it ...Concerning ultra-nationalism I think sometimes it is important to look at what the person actually does instead of what he claims to believe or think.HsssHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05138100261981208058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-24034408419131518392024-01-14T22:05:54.436+02:002024-01-14T22:05:54.436+02:00What about Wahid Azal on Dugin?What about Wahid Azal on Dugin?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-1669600100873755982024-01-07T16:58:58.249+02:002024-01-07T16:58:58.249+02:00I am currently translating Matgioi's "La ...I am currently translating Matgioi's "La voie metaphysique" for publication by Inner Traditions. This is a very welcome resource, expanding on what I have deduced so far from Jean-Pierre Laurant's writings.Joscelyn Godwinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29711878.post-38220871579301758922023-12-31T21:35:29.539+02:002023-12-31T21:35:29.539+02:00It is a fascinating article. My only quibble is th...It is a fascinating article. My only quibble is this phrasing: "Finally converting to Catholicism, a move out of step with Traditionalist norms." Given the Traditionalist presumption that one should embrace a particular tradition and practice it in the light of Tradition, converting to Catholicism would make perfect sense. A position, after all, that many of the main Traditionalist voices themselves practiced - most were indeed 'converts'. Rama Coomaraswamy is an obvious case in point here.Nicholas Colloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09677907138534928912noreply@blogger.com